What Player in BB History is better than Vanessa, if any?

[cutencuddly]

Time for a little game. I'm finally able to say that Vanessa is one of the best players ever -- without even gritting my teeth.

So now, who do you think is better than Vanessa? And why?

Who might be in contention but you don't put them higher than Vanessa after all? And why?


So far in my "better than Vanessa" column I have: Danielle Reyes, Dr. Will, Derrick.

I can't say why on Danielle Reyes or Dr. Will -- I didn't see their first seasons -- I'm just going by what I've heard about how they pioneered the game and other general things which others have said.

I put Derrick better because I think his strengths were roughly comparable with Vanessa's, but he had fewer weaknesses. If Vanessa and Derrick had played together, she would have shown many vulnerabilities which he could have exploited, but he wouldn't given her much if anything to exploit.

I'll put Dan and Andy as possibly better because they were better listeners. Their games had more finesse.

Mike Boogie is not as good as Vanessa because he needed Dr. Will and two tries in order to be in position to win the game.

And I put Vanessa above Rachel. Amazon warrior and intelligent woman that Rachel was, she still needed two tries and a big boost from production in order to win. Without that duo twist Pandora's box, I'm thinking no Rachel win.

And I put Vanessa over Ian. Ian was smart enough and if he had the kind of training Vanessa has had he would have been great, but he didn't have that good of handle on what was happening in the house.


Someone toss some more names out there. As noted I'm not very familiar with early seasons. The first season I watched in real time was where Hayden Moss won. Later I went back and watched a couple of earlier seasons: All-Stars and Dan's first season.




Edit: Oh yeah, Evel Dick. I did go back and watch his season but I can't remember how he was able to get as far as he did ... so I can't even try to rate him, but I'm gonna guess that others would rate him lower than Vanessa on game play if not on style.

[RUSSELL]

You trying to start a quiz show here CnC??? I haven't seen any season before season 11. But I do remember Hayden winning so I know that I seen that season. I had said to KeninVa quite awhile back that I thought Vanessa was going to take it. Not that I was rooting for her or anything it's just she seemed to be playing the game better then anyone else. I have never had a favorite win or even very close most of the time. So by the time we get down to the end I am usually here because of everybody here being here. So I can't give you any real good names but I think that most all since the time I started watching. All of them but 2 I have liked better then I like Vanessa. I can't tell you the names of them two individuals for the fear it may be my last words ever. So as always I will just keep it to myself!!!

[cutencuddly]

Heh.

I had a favorite win -- Ian.

But he was like a babe in the woods, with wolf Dan trying very hard to do him in and Ian winning out on sheer competition strength. He was blithely skipping along unaware of the danger he was in, so I gotta give Vanessa credit for much more game savvy.

[Blogzie]

Well, you do know that Evel Dick is my one true love. I told you that secret way back at the beginning of the season and I trust that you haven't told anyone. So yeah, it's all about Dick for me. I will say that both Dr. Will and Dan were way better than Vanessa could ever hope to be. And in some ways Derrick was better, even though I never liked him. But he did play a much cleaner game. Vanessa has been very messy with her game play.

[RUSSELL]

Nice place ya got here CnC. Good job!!!

[RUSSELL]

She sure is!!!

[cutencuddly]

Muwahaha!

Actually, I'm Vanessa's sister and have been fooling everyone this whole time so you'd never expect it when I came along and said she was the best player ever.

[RUSSELL]

AAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!! !!!

[KeninVA]

I put Dan and Derrick both above Vanessa. Dr. Will pioneered the game, and had a much different environment, so can't really compare him to anyone else.

Dan (Season 10) I rank above Vanessa for having better social skills, and more entertainment. He is also the first male UTR glider, who really could turn the comp ability on, after coasting through the first half of the game, Many have tried since, none of succeeded. Donny and Jmac both tried similar strategies and failed.

Derrick, for me, was the perfect game. He had control of the house by week two, and never let himself get into trouble. His strategy of building Victoria up into a jury threat was sheer genius, and allowed him to take her to the end, without fear of a Cody backstab.

ED is below Vanessa. Without America's player, he would have been an early jury boot, and without Eric, he would have lost to Danielle in Jury.

I rank Hayden Moss, tied to Vanessa. They just played vastly different games. Season 12 is one of my favorite seasons because of the genius of the Brigade, and the remarkable run when they did not turn on each other (sorry Matt).

I would put S3 Danielle on par with Vanessa. Different games, with the difference being Danielle was Lisa's goat, Vanessa is no one's goat.

Vanessa's flaws, as a player, are driven by her cool personality, obsession with the game, and inability to bond, in game, with the other HG's. She also showed too much loyalty early on, and made game moves for others, that did not really help her game. (Jeff boot was for Austin and Clay), not letting Audrey go that week raised her profile a lot.

I don't fault the over emotional play as a flaw, because I think the victim hood, protected her when making really big moves, and holding a lot of power. It allowed her to make the Jeff, Jason, and Austin boots, and still ''fix things'' with people she had pissed off.

[BettyBoo]

The game is a mix of skill and luck. Put the same winners in with a different cast and outcomes can/will change. Dr Will and Danielle pioneered the game. Dan perfected it in season 10. Derrick and Vanessa honed it to an art.

Season 5 is interesting in that it has the first successful bro team, the Horsemen, which game plan Hayden would later ride to the win. Nakomis came up with the Veto backdoor in that season. She was also surprised to learn that the player known as Cowboy was actually her brother. They became allies to each other after a very uncomfortable beginning.

I would love to see Derrick and Vanessa return to compete in a different mix. Neither Dr. Will or Danielle faired well when they came back. Dan, my favorite player, got to the Final Two. Yes, he was protected the first half of the game, but my wily boy still maneuvered to get out the other coaches, performed his hilarious Dan's Funeral, and was the only returning winner to get to the finals. I'm guessing Vanessa and Derrick would be knocked out as soon as they had no win protection if they returned.

Jordan is the win that never should have happened, but somehow did. Nice people aren't supposed to win! She even made Rachel nicer when they returned together. So she is second to Dan in my heart of winners. Danielle is the beloved one who was robbed. Respect, but no love to Dr. Will, Derrick and Vanessa, in that order.

[BettyBoo]

Just a thought, the only double winner of Survivor, Race, or Big Bro is Sandra and her only game was targeting others while not p*ssing off the Jury. And the most hilarious thing is I can NEVER remember her name! Always have to Wikipedia it. So you can be ruthless like a Hantz and lose. Or you can just smile and survive the best you can under the radar and win AND get away with it again with other repeat players. Still amazes me. I guess it's the roll into a ball versus the stand and roar technique with bears.

It's the cards you're dealt in that season with other players, comps, health, and uncontrolables like weather (Survivor) or taxis (Race). The other impact is the decisions made by TPTB which is also out of a player's control. In the end, like life, it's what they do with what they've got and what they get.

[cutencuddly]

I like Sandra.

She's lucky Survivor didn't have a a jury manipulator like Dr. Will. Totally sucks that Dr. Will is brought in to massage the jury. Totally against the principles of BB. His season is over. Jury isn't supposed to go home and see the stuff we see ... and ain't supposed to have someone who has seen what we've seen go in there and ask leading questions.




.... I was about to say, "But that's another subject." Only maybe it isn't. It affects what skills are needed to win. Jury management is not as important now. If Shelli weren't in there telling people to vote for Vanessa because she has such game, Will would be in there asking, "Who has the most game?" and leading the jury to vote for her.

[cutencuddly]

Any other names which belong up there in the top ten? Any other contenders at all for being better than Vanessa?

I'm the only one who mentioned Andy. Any more opinions on him?

[cutencuddly]

Where does Maggie rank?

[Myragirl]

I totally forgot about Maggie, but I would put her ahead of Vanessa too. She wasn't as much fun to watch, but IMO she earned her win 100%.

[Myragirl]

I'll play.

The only players I can put above Vanessa are Dr. Will and Dan.

IMO Dr Will is in a class all by himself. Enough said!

Next I put Dan, Dan was both fun to watch and perfect at manipulation. He also had 2 thingsVanessa wishes she had, the ability to step back, not overly control events, and a sense of calm even when backed in a corner. The combination of those two things earned him his unanimous votes to win in S10, and the fun he had when playing and manipulating in both S10 and S14 earned him a spot as a BB legend forever. I am one of those people who didn't think that Dan deserved to win over Ian. Dan lost to Ian because he failed to get Ian out of the game, if he had been sitting next to any other person, he might have won the game. I still think it was a remarkable feat to make it to F2 as a returning WINNER.

Danielle Reyes and Derrick are tied with Vanessa IMO.
Danielle is at par with Vanessa because while she was a great strategist, she was as Ken said, Lisa's goat. I don't believe that Danielle Reyes would have won her season even if the jury didn't see her DRs. I think they liked Lisa more, and thought Lisa played a better game. They used the DR sessions as justification to give Lisa the win. I might give Danielle an edge because she did help shape the game by influencing the need to isolate the jury.
Derrick I think is also at par with Vanessa because I don't think he had to adapt in the game. There was a direct line from week 2 to the end for him to win. Dr. Will, Dan, and Danielle all had to adapt, and so did Vanessa. I believe that adaptability is a key requirement in great BB player. In addition, Derrick's alliance members trusted his words because they were never in jeopardy or actively targeted because there was never an other side of the house in his season (Jocasta and Donnie were never potent, Hayden and Nicole bought into the big group even though they were low men on the totem pole). They dominated the game from start to finish. I also think that BotB continuing deep into the game was a big help to him. His alliance members were able to stay true to him because they were in power all but one week throughout the season. Contrast with SS and F&G who trusted Vanessa because she could win comps and she helped flip them into the dominant alliance. They were doing fine until BotB ended and suddenly they lost power to James who proceeded to target Clay and Shelli, the then King and Queen of the house. The loss of such power figures shook their alliance really hard. However, after their eviction, Vanessa rallied, aligned with her sworn enemy in JMac, started winning comps again, and they all came flocking back to the fold. Imagine if they never lost power, they would never have strayed in the first place.

Every other winner I put below Vanessa. Boogie won because he had Will. Ian won from sheer will, likability, and being brought in as a foil to Boogie and Frank. he was never a dominating character. Andy is also lower because he had more powerful meat shields, and never had to be the dominant, instead he was an opportunist. While I don't think anything is wrong with that, I think if Helen and McCrae had been more astute, or Amanda had not gone off the deep end, Andy would never have won. Rachel won because of a redemption story and twist in her favor. ED won solely because of Eric Stein, so he ranks lower than even Boogie, Ian, Andy and Rachel.

[cutencuddly]

Thanks Myra!

Fwiw, I think Derrick had to adapt in at least two significant ways. First was the BoB itself. He had to work a brand new twisty twist into his plan. Second was when the Bomb Squad was blown up. He did some pretty neat work to stop from going kablooey with it and to stop people from realizing the core of that now-known alliance was still solid.

[BettyBoo]

Dan won 10 & placed in 14.

[Myragirl]

cutencuddly, IMO Bomb squad never did quite blow up. Most of the people who were recruited stay in, and outsiders like Hayden and Nicole kinda flocked to the main players. Even if it did blow up, there was never a real opposing side to target its members. BotB itself started at the beginning of the season, played to the advantage of the bigger alliance. If it had been brought in later in the game, then it might have required adaptability.

Thanks BettyBoo, I fixed it.

[MrsVee]

I cannot tell you who was the best but , my dream would be all of the winners to come back in and fight it out . I mean every single one. It Would be epic! I wonder who would be the first floater?😳

[BettyBoo]

Isn't one still in jail?

[KennyERJ]

Adam Jasinski was sentenced to 4 years in January 2011 so he should have gotten out of prison by now but I can't find any news of him being released. He could have gotten out earlier for good conduct or he could be serving longer for bad conduct. IDK.

[cutencuddly]

Should entertainment value elevate the rank of a player?

For example, I'm thinking of Boston Rob from Survivor. I think he is remembered as one of the best, but he took four tries to win. By the time he got his winning season he was a consummate professional survivor among a tribe of little lambs. Russell was in that same season and he got voted out by his tribe. But Boston Rob had tribal management down to a science, and he was loaded with charisma, and he finally won.

Also from Survivor, Cochran is one of my very favorites, and he didn't do well the first time around and was invited back on the sheer force of his popularity. And then he ran the table in his second season. In a series with more than 25 winners who won on their first time through, does either of Rob or Cochran deserve a spot in the top ten best players of Survivor?


If yes, then would a calculation like that earn an entertaining player such as Rachel a higher berth? She took two tries and a production boost to win, but does the force of her personality earn her a higher spot in the rankings than some other BB winners? There are season winners who have not been memorable enough to mention by name in this thread so far. Does Rachel outrank them? Does Janelle outrank any of these winners? Does Brittany Haynes?



List of winners copied from CBS site:

Season 16: Derrick Levasseur
Season 15: Andy Herren
Season 14: Ian Terry
Season 13: Rachel Reilly
Season 12: Hayden Moss
Season 11: Jordan Lloyd
Season 10: Dan Gheesling
Season 9: Adam Jasinski
Season 8: Dick Donato
Season 7: Mike "Boogie" Malin
Season 6: Maggie Ausburn
Season 5: Drew Daniel
Season 4: Jun Song
Season 3: Lisa Donahue
Season 2: Will Kirby
Season 1: Eddie McGee

[KeninVA]

I'll play. I don't use entertainment "value" as a measure, largely because I am entertained by the game itself. Good players are the entertainment, for me.

I have never rated Janelle that highly. While a memorable character, and a strong competitor, she is much like Rachel, too polarizing to be top ranked player. I would put Brit S14, above a lot of these winners. And I would not rank Steve's win that highly, IMO. I heard his interview with Jeff. I would buy the strategy, if not for the reality, Vanessa approached Steve, and built Scamper Squad, not Steve. John sold out Steve, the day he made his deal, and Steve continued to go back to John. In the end, Steve ended up 1 wrong decision by John (to evict Austin, instead of Steve), and 1 question and a possible tie break, from going out the door.

And as far as strategy, if he was that good, he would have not agonized over the Meg/Julia boot in F8, which was clearly a low payoff, high risk decision, had he followed through to boot Julia. He was going to nominate the twins, and leave Austin off the block at F6, only being talked into the safer course of action, by Vanessa and John. He may have had a lot going on, in his head, but Vanessa never really trusted him, and said so on numerous occasions. And, in the end, he did not even earn her vote. Most of Steve's game was at the direction of Vanessa, and it was not playing, IMO, given the mistakes I already mentioned.

[cutencuddly]

Thanks, Ken! Was super curious about how you would see him after the season was over.

[BettyBoo]

I have always thought that Brian Heidik who won Survivor 5 was a textbook player, much like Derrick. Played a flawless game, never getting a vote against him. Probest hated that season. I suspect it's because Brian was an unpleasant person with a bad past. But I gotta give him props for being the ultimate puppet master.

This year for me is a bit of Big Bro 4 when Jun won over Alison. Neither was a nice person and united in the end into an evil partnership. Alison was especially in your face bee-atchy. We talk about applause levels. Well they were still in the house when the vote was announced, and the applause was so subdued that they both commented on it. Total crickets.